CLP Junction

Junction118 · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:54 am Post subject: Park's opening date in doubt

Park officials expect a judge to rule by friday if CLP can proceed with the sale of three acres of lakefront property. If the sale is approved the park will seek a $250,000 loan which will be secured by the future profits from the sale. The sale of the land is expected to enable the park to eliminate it's entire $1.9 million debt. The properties considered for sale are the site of the former Flynn House and the McClure House which has fallen into disrepair and was comdemned by Summit Township. If the sale is not approved the park will have to consider delaying it's opening weekend or only opening parts of the park.

http://www.meadvilletribune.com/local/local_story_114232420.html?keyword=topstory

CLP82 · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:29 am Post subject:

I guess we have to support the sale of 3 lousy acres in order to get our park open. I guess the positive is that the land will eliminate debt. However, whenever the park is in trouble selling land parcels should not always be the answer. Hopefully with a profitable season for 2006 we will not have to worry about money to open for 2007. I assume with 7 interested developers the judge should have no problem allowing the park to take the loan, because re-payment will be almost instantanious. As with developers and money though, give em a inch and they'll take a foot.
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cappy · Member Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 141 Location: Western Pa

Amazing how quickly things change. Wasn't it just a few weeks ago around the beginning of April that the Park management said all is a go for the Park to open for Memorial Day? Now it appears that the only item important to the Park management is the land sales! Surprise, Surprise! That is where the $$$ is! Seven developers interested in the property the Meadville paper reports, I would think so since there is no available waterfront land anymore! I'm sure there will be plenty more to express interest. And of course Sterns has to put positive spin on the deal saying the money raised will pay off the Park debts and put him out of a $50,000 job and turn the Park over to a Trustee board again. We'll see if that ever happens. But I am sure that both Sterns and the Judge will see a nice little bonus out of selling the land, oh it will be all legal like a nice political contribution to the Judge's next election campain and the Judge in turn will give Sterns a nice bonus for doing such a good job in his stewardship of the Park.

My apologies for being so negative, but these guys don't really care about the Park. They are just taking it for a ride for their own personal gain!

bigkirby · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:13 am Post subject:

Small town politics. On the Meadville Tribune forum they list Sterns also as a Meadville councilman and deputy mayor. Are we really supposed to believe that selling 3 acres of land will general almost $1.9 million? No suprise that 7 people want a piece of whatever Conneaut Lake is wiling to part with. I'd say it's time to let a private operator lease the park, or hire out the management to businessmen who actually have amusement park experience. Dump Sterns, keep Deshner on retainer for the time being.
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-Evan

Onion Sandwich · Member Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 18

You all REALLY should post these comments on the Meadville Tribune site were the public will see them! People need to see these comments!!! It's important to make your voice heard!

bigkirby · Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject:

Will do.
Also, do they really expect three acres to pay off 1.9 million? That's more than 600k per acre.

I have lived in a small town my entire life. I trust George do do the right thing but not Sterns. As a result I don't have faith in the team. I am glad I attended the Holiday event and contributed to the brick fund, but I really think private business would be more accountable. Harris was a criminal, and the can is a good place for him. Others are out there that can do it well. Retired park managers do exist, especially in this area of the country with so many great seasonal parks around. Let's hope one of them comes out of the woodwork.
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-Evan

cappy · Member Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 141 Location: Western Pa

Onion Sandwich, I have tried several times to post a reply on the Meadville Tribune website. My posts never seem to appear.

Bigkirby I could not agree more. I wish someone such as those that own Waldarmeer in Erie or Cedar Point in Sandusky would see the value in Conneaut Lake Park, buy it and really run it like it needs to be run. Am I crazy, I think that there is tremendous potential here. How many free amusement parks are left out there, besides the quaintness and historical value of the Park. And when gas gets to $5 a gallon, people are going to be looking for places to go close to home. I do agree that George Deshner is trying his best. I saw him in action several times over the past year and he was working his butt off. A saw Sterns once during the Holiday in the Park and he was too busy looking important to help out. He was surrounded with all his people and George was busy in the kitchen making food and bringing it out to feed all of em. Oh and by the way Sterns wears more than just the councilman and deputy mayor hats, besides overseeing the Park, I believe he is also in charge of the county humane society. So he wears alot of hats and collects alot of pay checks too!

Let me also say one last thing. I have been downing the land sale only because it is the easy way out and I think it is a political deal. The sale is an alternative to clearing the debt, but in my opinion it should be the last option pursued. As I had stated before, the judge ought to first broker some deals with some of the creditors such as the townships to reduce or eliminate the back debts. Then they should explore raising other revenue, like I don't think the parking fees are outrageous. That is about what they charged years ago. And if you drive into Cleveland or Pittsburgh for a night out, your going to pay alot more than a buck to park. It sounds like they are really trying to pursue the group/company picnics market, now that is where the money is!! Another thought could be going after ride sponsorship like they do at Disney and other theme parks. Heck even some golf courses have their holes sponsored by various business. Basically I'm saying that the Park mgt needs to think outside the box a bit. The land will always be there and it is not going to go down in value. But it should only be given up as a last resort. That's my thought anyway.

Oh and Bigkirby one last thing. $1.9 million for the land. If they develop it for condo's and lets say they build a couple of buildings and have like 100 condos. And I'm sure they will be high end units since they have water views and all, so lets say that the asking price would be like $300,000. So 100 units times $300,000 is what $30 million? Now I have no idea of how many condos are to be built and the prices involved, but I don't think $1.9 million for the land is unreasonable.

Junction118 · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:17 am Post subject:

Rather than getting into a political debate here I’ll just start off with some facts....

-CLP is $1.9 million in debt and has failed to make a dent in that with its normal revenues.

-Once the park pays off that debt it will be free from court supervision and we won't have to see the words "court-appointed" in front of the names of park officials.

-The land proposed for sale is not in any key areas of the park. The main area of the park's lakefront from just north of the beach club to the Hotel Conneaut will not be touched

-Without the profits from the sale the park may not open on time or may not open ever again.

The park seems to find itself in a catch-22 situation. They can't develop the land without a substantial amount of money, but if they don't sell the land the park will not be around long enough to develop the land. I don't think CLP could survive being closed for another summer. The land sale may be the only option the park has left at this point. The fact that the park is still $1.9 million in debt after years of trying to turn things around doesn't allow for time to look for other solutions to paying off the debt. Previous park boards have wasted too much time and caused more harm than good. The parking fee will help but will not make an impact fast enough. Yes, selling the land IS a quick fix, but that's what the park needs right now. Having that much debt hanging over them makes it tough to plan for the future. The park has run out of time to take baby steps in its turnaround. Without the debt they will have more freedom to renovate & repair buildings & maybe bring in new rides. With a responsible and dedicated manager like George this summer will show if the park can succeed and be profitable. I seem to remember reading that the park did actually make a small profit last summer before some debts were paid. Also, the extremely unorganized "accounting procedures" of the old park board made it almost impossible to see where the park really stood financially.

If the park can't open on time Memorial Day weekend it could be the final nail in the coffin. The park's 2 Do-Wopp weekends are its big events.

As great as it would be so see a proven, successful park purchase CLP and turn it around I seriously doubt it will happen anytime soon. Waldameer will be building a new coaster in the new couple years so i can't see them taking a risk with CLP. Considering Cedar Point's track record of removing history in favor of extreme thrills I would hate to see them get their hands on CLP. Cedar Fair is good at what they do but it's the total opposite of what CLP is. I have read that back in the 90's Kennywood looked into purchasing CLP but the condition of the park played a big role in them deciding to buy Lake Compounce instead.

There may not even be any buyers interested in running CLP as an amusement park. For instance, look at the situation with Joyland in Kansas. The new owners are promising a new waterpark IF the public supports the park. If not the park will close and will be redeveloped. I have a feeling they've already decided to close the park and it won't matter how much the public supports it. There's also William's Grove which will not open this summer. That park has been up for sale for a while and hasn't attracted a buyer.

CLP should be able to get whatever price they want for the land. It is some of the last remaining available lakefront property. Also, having 7 interested parties should create some kind of a bidding war. Even if it means getting slightly less money the park should require every potential buyer to submit a proposal then choose the one that's best for the park.

I'm not saying CLP management shouldn't be thinking outside the box for ways to make the park profitable. For example, there has to be some way they can use the old jungle cruise area instead of it just being that area of mysterious green water that everyone riding the Blue Streak points out and says "What's that?." Eliminating the debt will allow them more room to experiment.

I've posted comments on the Tribune site in the past and every one ended up showing up eventually. I encourage everyone to post comments there but please try to make it clear that you support the park. I've seen far too many comments there about how old and run down the place is and that it should just close.

Onion Sandwich · Member Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 18

Actually that property is key and a very significant resource!

Junction118 · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject:

I do agree that every bit of lakefront property the park has is an important resource but when most people think of the park's lakefront area they think of the area from the beach club to the hotel. That's the area i consider as being key to the park's public image. The average visitor who is unfamiliar with the park's history has no idea what the Flynn House or McClure House were. In a way, selling that land is a way of using that resource for the benefit of the rest of the park. It's a shame to lose parts of the park's history but we're not talking about demolishing the hotel or ballroom here. CLP is not in a position right now to be able to do anything with the land. They could hold onto it for future development but without the money from the sale there may not be a future for the park. I hate to see them sell any land but at this point there aren't a lot of options left. CLP has been deep in debt for a long time and every summer there are doubts about it opening for another year. Selling the land isn't likely to solve all the park's problems but it will give them some breathing room.

cappy · Member Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 141 Location: Western Pa

Junction118 as usual your post tells it like it is. If time is up on repaying and the debt colletor is a knocking, then selling the land is the only option. I agree though that the Park is in the driver's seat and should get as much money as posible for the property and have some say in just what goes in there and the design factor.

One interesting thing I thought I would mention, I have a cottage near the Park, several of my neighbors would live there all year tell me that there are rumors circulating of casino gambling coming to Conneaut Lake Park. Now normally I don't put much into rumors, but since the PA legislature has created a provision in the gambling law that allows for a thing called a resort license for slot play and resorts like Seven Springs and Nemacolin Woodlands are pursuing such a licence. One begins to wonder, the Park and the Lake would definitely be attractive to a casino developer. Anyway this rumor is definitely something to keep in mind. So I wonder, are all the developers interested in the land for condo's? Anyway just some food for thought!

Oh and as for that green water for the old Jungle Cruise, well believe it or not that actually connects to the wetlands of the Lake. So there might be some environmental issues on any clean up or development. Although I agree, too bad something can not be done to reuse the area.

moparchet · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject:

As much as I hate to see it happen, I agree with Junction 118. The park has been in so much debt for so long, it seems the only way out of it is to sell the property. It would be great if the park could recover on it's own but I don't see that happening. George is making alot of intelligent business decisions and has only the best intentions in every action. He does only have limited resources. The Park has survived for over one hundred years adapting to adversity and making the most of it. As upsetting as it is, isn't now the time we swallow our pride and move forward? The Flynn House, as it was, was not a viable part of the park, sell the property, pay the bills, and move foreward. The park can't make any profit if we're not open. I just hope somebody is looking over the shoulders of the deal makers. The heart of the park must be preserved and restored.

Junction118 · Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject:

Thanks cappy & moparchet....I realize the land sale issue will be a touchy subject with a lot of people but the way things stand right now it's the best thing the park can do. CLP has been through a lot of changes in it's 114 years, 2 major fires, the great depression, the loss of rail traffic, competition from other parks, and a shift in what the public expects from an amusement park. The park has adapted and survived against some pretty big odds. When the park closed for a season in 1995 would anyone have bet money that we would be discussing the park opening again in 2006? I know I wouldn't have. This land sale is just yet another change in the park's history and could very well be the one that keeps it's going for another 10, 20 or 30 years.

I read some of the comments on the Tribune site today. I wasn't exactly shocked to see that the second comment suggests "close the park down and sell the item in the park. to pay the unpaid bills".....i'll ignore the typing errors in that one. Another comment exclaims...

bigkirby · Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject:

An outside group could bring in new attraction and strike a deal to split the ticket profits with the park. That would give them extra money and something to draw crowds without out of pocket expenses to start.

Perhaps I did overreact, and I apologize. But I do believe that caution is required especially rumors of more sales arise.

I believe in one article (when the Flynn House was burned) someone discussed selling a portion of the small parking lot as well. Does anyone know about that, or how large the main lot is? I am wondering how they will divide them for the different parking rates.
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-Evan

CC-Citizen · Member Joined: 27 Apr 2006 Posts: 1

I would urge any of you people to visit the forum at meadvilletribune.com
The locals are discussing this same conneaut lake park subect and are looking at the scene with a different view then some of you. I agree with most of what is said being wrote over on the forum about conneaut park.
http://www.meadvilletribune.com/Forum

go to page 22 on the polictics in crawford county blog some good comments are being made about the goings on at conneaut lake park.

what ya'll think about what they are talking about over there????????